angrydurf

From what I have seen the desire is to not allow Wealth to buy Equipment so it can't get you stuff with any real In-Game value (plot value like a painting or ancient artifact sure) and it seems any benefit from living in High Society is better covered by a 1 point status effect, I suppose a 1 point wealth benefit just to represent that kind of status effect is just as good though.

So Wealth is a one point benefit that gives you the right to claim whatever kind of fortune your background and other stats (equipment, skills, etc) warrant. You can get into the good parties and get invites to the charity auctions and fashion shows. No real need for multiple ranks though. Can't buy Equipment stuff but can buy point neutral Items as story requires (stuff that give no mechanical bonus isn't covered by Equipment, like Art, Antiques, etc.)

Thoughts?

Sooo why not just drop the wealth benefit entirely. If you want to be wealthy you write it into your back ground and it doesn't really get you anything beyond whats on your sheet? I mean is raw money really useful in this genre? Stuff is covered by equipment, access to snooty parties and events fall to appropriate status/contacts/connected. It kinda feels like we're trying to put a price ont he right for one player to say to another "I'm richer than you." Which really doesn't have much use In Game. the only thing I've seen so far is the option for villains to use it to subvert the legal system but Benefit: mobties, or benefit: blackmailed judge(or DA or officials) seem like they could cover that even better.

ok I dropped progression down to 1 (50') which I think should cover fine I thought the starting area was much smaller.

I also dropped sedation off the stun as Shaen pointed out that it basically did the same thing as the sleep extra (extends time between recovery checks)

This does leave me room to drop the array to a level 9 (18pps) but I'm gonna wait to finalize that and spend the points until I know whats what with the wealth benefit.

the idea of hte selective feat was that it will only conceal the targets I want in that area not turn everything in the area invisible. The area is mostly so if I'm workign with others and we split up to go to each end of a house or whatever they can remain invisible, the full three ranks was to fill out to the points in the array, I have since redone the math on the other powers though and they came out to fewer points.

I can drop some of the progression I just wanted to make sure we didn't all have to be standing right next to each other if I use it on others.

Oh I get that but usualyy thats a thing of you knock a guy out then continue to beat him after that point or use some other method to "finish him".

Plus I kinda use the genre as a guide and punches don't just kill people (arguably due to the attacker choosing not too) in comics it really isn't until weapons come in that real lethality enters the picture. I mean if he could Jugernaut woudl always do lethal and Scott woudl be dead in one hit but he gets flung through walls for non-lethal and lives. Granted all of that is story driven and not actually taking into account anyhting like mechanics.

I'm just used to with RPGs using lethal and non-lethal damage that you need a weapon/power to do lethal and bare fists are non-lethal so thats certainly part of it.

But its the way of M&M it doesn't really follow the RPG standards.

Edited the resurrection time, his other healing is at the base rate still.

the strike is really to represent a solid punch so I figure it shouldn't be lethal, he's not like breaking boards kung fu master more a brawling mixed martial arts with a solid punch, so I figure he can't hurt/break non living things and while he can knock a guy out with a punch he can't kill a guy with one. I get that the assumption is non-lethal but he can't do lethal with the strike (honestly I don't get why a normal punch can be lethal but thats M&M for ya) so it doesn't work on objects or constructs/zombies for that matter still seems limiting but its one point so *shrug*)

The idea would be that the ring (or amulet) would be worn most times but certainly not hidden (and give a knowledge arcane check to recognize it as magic even from casual examination possibly). In addition to the device element of it being possibly stolen etc it would be need to be activated as a full round action verbally so no activation if silenced with anything from a gag to obfuscate sound powers or chokehold.

So it woudl have the drawbacks and limitations of both elements. I mean normal Identity can be used to represent the captain Marvel all you have to do is say the word. Its not just wearing the ring that gives the powers but activating it along the same lines. I mean if the normal guy gets mugged and the ring is stolen thats the device causeing trouble, if he's bound and gaged unable to activate it thats the normal Identity drawback.

as for not counting for device even I guess I can see that if its beign used cheesily and hidden but on of the prime examples of device from the books is the power ring ala green lantern.

Woudl it work better as a limitation on the device? How much would a limitation that didn't allow the device to function until the words of power were spoken be worth?

Ok cool thats kinda how I thought it worked just wanted to confirm.

Can you have both?

Heres my thought a power ring allows the transformation to Captain Awesome. Its a device, hard to lose, with all the Captain Awesome powers in it. But it requires activation (say full round action, Speak the word of Power to activate the ring) to turn our plucky hero James Jones into Captain Awesome.

So would it be valid to build the ring as a device(with the 5 device pp for 4 points trade off) and then get points for the 4 point drawback (full round change)?

Its kinda murky one of the options for normal Identity is it requires a power object but if the Normal Identity is built as the limitation that can prevent activation is must be able to speak can you still build the ring as a device (IE seperate from the Normal Identity restriction you need access to a hard to steal device?) If the powers were in the device of course the device could be taken after transformation and then render the hero back to his normal form.

Or would it be better just to take a device (it is points wise) that is worth the bulk of your points and use the "Change" as a special effect and not bother with the Normal Identity drawback?

I went in to Kung-Fu Panda expecting a parody of martial arts movies. What I got was a wickedly-entertaining love letter to them.

It's also apparently the favorite movie of Alderwitch & AngryDurf's son. By the time he was 18 months old, any time he walked into the living room and something other than Kung-Fu Panda was playing, he'd shout "NOT PANDA!", toddle across the room, and shut the TV off.

This is truth. though he has expanded his tastes somewhat since then it is still one of his faves.

Also for the adults it actually has surprising rewatchablity without becoming too irritating.

The short spin off secrets of the furious five is also a good one. Very clasic kung-fu flick homage still.

Quick edit to fix really bad math on my skills

Yea it's a neat feat, I can totally just go "Look the good year blimp." *points* and it works

The Shadow is deffinately one of the inspirations, especialy for the powers.

I like the stun usable in combat with the aplication of his will he is able to command his foes into a deep sleep (well kinda ) with but a word. Really its alot more brute force than most of his techniques just kinda throwing his mental weight around rather than the more subtle use of illusions and concealment. Plus he's designed to kinda be a controller in combat keeping the enemies distracted etc for the brawlers to take out, well for group combatat least, solo he tries to minimize how many guys can focus on him at a time and mostly tries to take on one at a time from hiding if he can't just avoid the fight entirely.

I think keeping it to the PL caps makes as much sense as ony other cap. You won't be stopped in buying wealth you'll just have to shuffle points so your at not over cap. You can have 7 ranks of diplomacy plus your attractive and wealth bonus an sit at the PL10 cap. if you have more than that in diplomacy you can switch those to another skill or even move the PP to get a feat, maybe pick up skill mastery for your interaction skills, or whatever else could usea boost.

I always assumed that any interaction skill bonus would be affected by the PL caps almost nothing lets you break caps.

Yea in combat would be pretty limited anyway withthe mind trick I suppose. Plus being able to combine it with the illusions brings a smile to my face. (droped the mind control AP for skill mastery)

For distract I mean the distract feat from the M&M2E core book

Distract Skill, Ranked

You can make a Bluff or Intimidate check (choose

one when you acquire the feat) to cause an opponent

to hesitate in combat. Take a standard action

and make a skill check against your target’s opposing

check (the same skill, Sense Motive, or Will save,

whichever has the highest bonus). If you succeed, your

target is dazed for one round (defending normally, but

taking no action). Targets gain a +1 bonus on checks

to resist Distract per attempt against them in the

same encounter. You can take this feat twice (gaining

the ability to use it with either Bluff or Intimidate).

I know that's what most are thinking about, but having one pp change the level of welath so easily just doesn't sit well with me. 3pps to be Silly rich is just too cheap. Ranking it out would keep people from buying wealth so quickly. Of course, if we charge more pps for each level that works as well. 1pp for Wealthy, 3pps for Loaded, 6pps for Silly rich, works for me.

Well I think its more a matter of matching the benefit to the cost. If it doesn't actually get us "stuff" which I think is part of the point of the change than just being rich isn't useful mechanicswise. If you look at comics wealth is more like a descriptor than an actual benefit, The wayne fortune is the explanation for all the bat gadgets but you can certainly have them without the personal fortune as well just look at the various batclones that are not multi gazzilionares. If all we get for the levels is to say "I'm supa rich" 5-6 pp is steep.

Diplomacy (bribery) and gather information should be the two skills associated with Wealth. I don'T see Bluff or Intimidate having a relation with how much money you can spend....Actually, Intimidate would fit to a degree.

"I ahve more than enough money to find you whereever you go to make your life hell!"

I think the natural skill would be gather info, you get access to more people and can grease the wheels where needed. Diplomacy for bribies makes sense but would that stack with attractive? What about craft? to represent higher quality tools and ease of gathering quality materials.

Also if its structured like attractive to give 2 bonuses at +4 your getting really high bonuses at the high levels of wealth if its ranked as it currently is going to 6+

Ok adjusted his Base attack and dodge up and his feats for those down a bit so theres not so much of a gap.

tweaked a few feats (mostly the combat ones but dropped well traveled and added power attack)

I dropped the strike to 2 and gave it the non-lethal only drawback, and added the equipment list

Added that he still looks 24 to physical description and a brief explanation of his HQ under powers and abilities.

Considering dropping the mind control power for skill mastery with some interaction skills how would that work for in combat type commands? Would it just be the penalty for hostile target or woudl some stuff just not work since there isn't a Power backing it up?

Background and other fluff look mostly good.

The very low base attack/ranged attack (should he really be less proficient with firearms than an average police officer?) I'm a bit leery of.

the Idea is that he's not really a fighter though the realist in me realizes that combat is inevitable so I gave him martial arts training but he really hasn't maintained any other skills. What is average proficiency for a police officer? If the points can do it I can try to pull that up a bit.

I'm even more leery of the very low base defense + high Dodge Focus + Uncanny Dodge.

It was actually tough for me to figure out exactly what the non dodge portion of defense is supposed to represent. That led to focusing on dodge as his real defense mechanism, he knows how to get out of hte way of a blow kinda deal.

On both this and the base attack issue I am trying to keep him relevant in combat if lower overall scores in those areas could still allow that then I woudl happily drop them somewhat.

As I'm sure you're aware, we're working on re-doing the Wealth rules, so you may be able to save some points there.

What Benefit do you expect from "Well-Traveled"? I'd think Connected, Contacts, and Well-Informed (plus a god Diplomacy and Gather Information bonus) would be sufficient.

Yea I'm monitoring how wealth is gonna settle out. Well as a child he was basically johnny quest he's been to dakana, the wildlands 5 or 6 false shamballa vales (that he knows to be false) and other "mysterious places TM" I was looking for a knowledge skill that would cover that kinda knowledge none of the ones int he book really fit being more "book learning" in scope so I made up this. If the background is sufficient for him to go "hey I saw something like this when we were being chased by the beastmen of Arr in the depths of the amazon." I would drop it. I guess the jack of all trades does give him knowledege checks on any subject though so its probably unneccisary.

What sort of Equipment does he have?

DOH i forgot to paste that part over. Should I edit it into the post above?

Why is his Strike Innate? Innate is typically for powers that are some inherent, natural part of the character, like an elephant's Growth. Also, how is it they strike as hard as greataxes? A rank or two in Strike I can easily see as being from Training, but 4 ranks seems a bit high to me.

He doesn't have mystic damaging powers so the strike is supposed to be along the lines of "he has a wicked left cross." which is why its innate its not super powered, can't be boosted/nullified. I can drop it down to whatever max you say is possible for that though. I mean for the same points I could get more bang by dumping it into raw strength with the same basic effect but He's not that strong just hits hard.

So the Mind Control is that he just talks them into doing what he wants, and the Stun is that he talks them to sleep (backed by psionic power)?

The mind control is my attempt at the "jedi mind trick" he says like one sentance(a few words in combat) that they obey/believe like "Drop the gun!" or "Our identifacation is sufficient." The stun is basically the same deal only he just says "Sleep" and they do. Thematically its "ancient vocal techniques and meditive focus fromt eh mysterious east" but mechanically I think psionic is the best catagory for a descriptor though I'm open to a better suggestion.

Let me know what numbers are satisfactory to you on the Combat stats and I'll adjust them I really just have them there to participate in the inevatable combats. With bruisers like Hellbound or knieval I figured I should really try aand reach for the caps so I don't go down too easy to the stuff designed to chalenge them. But he's a Face/infiltrator not a bruiser so I'm not attatched to the combat stats.

Seeing as how I'm invested in the Wealth rules myself, might as well toss in my two cents. For me Wealth is a background thing. At the start of the adventure or whatever, and the GM asks you why you're there, you can answer "I'm filthy stinking rich." Which could either be good or bad depending on the scenario. But that's neither here nor there.

Wealth represents what your character has potential access to, where as Equipment represents what they have on hand right now. Malice has quite a bit of Wealth and is a weapons deveolper, so it's not beyond reason that he's got access to some high tech mumbo jumbo. As it is now, that's simply represented by him having the necesary parts to make a battle suit. Now if I would like to pull out a hither to unmentioned bazooka out of no where, that would be bad.

For the most part, Wealth is a descriptor, and I myself don't see using my Wealth to leverage anything, with one exception. In the Mastermind's Manual, there is a quick little section about rolls to decide the outcome of a trial. One of the things that gives a bonus to this roll is ranks in Wealth. You can bet money that if Malice is ever caught he'll bribe the pants off the jury.

All of that being said, I like Shaen's first idea, but slightly modified. There are 3 tiers of Wealth: Wealthy, Loaded, and Just Silly.

Wealthy: This level of Wealth represents someone who is well off, but still has to pay attention to their finances. Nice house, nice car, don't have to worry about major expenses most of the time, but can't splurge on a yatch. This is the level of minor celebrities, or higher end professionals.

Loaded: You could spend the average person's annual salary weekly and not run out of money. You take extravagent vacations at the drop of a hat, you always get the VIP treatment where ever you go, and you have the top of the line of whatever you want. This is the level of A list celebrities.

Just Silly: You routinely buy things that have no price tag. You can live extravagantly on your interest alone. Your personal Wealth is larger than that of some countries. This is Bill Gates or Bruce Wayne.

I like this

Personally I think the wealth option really only works in tabeltop. I was in a LARP for awhile that used a varient wealth rule for VtM and it made resources way to powerful since there wasn't enough GM "NO" going on due to the playerbase being huge.

The character I apped has wealth, I woudl be happiest if it was just a status like benifit maybe a social bonus to certain situations and switch the points to Equipment but He's still awaiting approval so changes are easy.

I would keep the wealth at 5 even if it was one of the other systems Shaen suggested but it woudl be for character reasons only and woudl kinda feel like a waste of points honestly.

My main concern is that it is balanced against the other benefits/feats like status or equipment. Equipment "just for the scene" can be better done witht he array of alternate powers as described under the utility belt section of equipment or even as a HP expenditure for an aditional alternate power (equipment in this case).

It could work to get Equipment for one mission/adventure/caper I guess but it also doesn't really make sense that your vast wealth allows you to "lease" Items but not buy them permanently. Though for balance being able to just buy permanent equipment is too powerfull.

Honestly I think I'd rather it be a form of status and if you want stuff you buy that stuff as equipment with equipment points. I think though that that would also require a look at EP costs of some items (I'm looking at you flashlight) that are really not worth even 1 EP.

Maybe a list of "starter gear" that anyone without the struggling complication or impoverished drawback has access to. If we want to say that everyone starts with a certain available "stuff"

Really guns and pepper spray should be equipment only. They require permiting etc and for the purposes of the game have a greater value than thier cash value would indicate.

the EP cost of Items is (rightfully) more in line with thier use than thier cash value. I think if your gonna use wealth to get stuff it should be divorced from EP cost entirely and moved to an actual cash system of course that rachets up the complexity again.

Well being bored and a rules nut I was workingo n a few variations on wealth that might work in this format but I relized that simpler really is better so I willonly write up the simple stuff ATM.

One: Drop the wealth benefit, its a descriptor of your lifestyle with no in game value if you want stuff by the equipment feat if you want access to the upper echolons of society buy status or contacts.

Pros: simple and not even really a house rule just strait book. Cons: Any character with wealth would have to be refunded the points and then respend them so alot of work approving the re-works (not sure how common wealth is but woudl be the main downside)

Two: Better define the current system. Wealth option as explained in the house rules basicaly. What can be bought/owned is anything not restricted, restricted Items would be any Item that requires licensing to own/carry. These Items are mundane versions of said Items not supped up super versions with oil slicks etc and must be used in legal ways (no flying the private jet/heliocopter without a registered flight plan or in protected airspace). This allows rich characters to have nice appartments/mansions (without supercomputers or special equipment) or fancy cars (but not the batmobile) or even a private jet (that they can fly from an airport to an airport but not use to airdrop into the city) anything that has enhancements beyond the "normal" needs to be bought in full with Equiment points (no upgrading your mansion or penthouse into the batcave/baxter building pay for the full deal).

Pros: No rewrites needed as characters have been built under the basic system already this just clarifyies what you can have (some small rewrites for people who bought cell phones and flashlights with eps) Cons: Some may assume that they can get stuff that they cant (armored limo, lock release gun) so Refs have to keep an eye on that.

I think the second is a bit better but there seemed to be some hesitancy to give stuff to the wealthy characters for "free".

I will say that most editions of champions (especially after the full intergration with HERO) are pretty convoluted and have multiple ways of doing the same effect some of them at sharp discount.

The wealth system in the book doesn't (that I can see) say it can't cover equipment, thats been added when they did the odd version for the house rule. In fact it is desighned to allow you to buy Equipment without spending power points on it. One assumes this is balanced buy the GM saying no to some stuff and some stuff just not being available for purchase.

This is really a table top rule where it doesn't matter much if one character can buy a ton of stuff with wealth. the GM can keep an eye on the situation and say no when it woudl damage the plot. thats much harder to do in a game of this size with already taxed refs. Also the book system of wealth is ablative so that buying stuff will temporarily lower your wealth rating but that is tied into the wealth check which is not used but given as an auto success for numbers under your check. The wealth check and shopping time requires more GM monitoring that is really feasible in a game of this format.

I think thats why the limitations that were placed on wealth under tho old GM were put there the idea being he woudl be able to say no that woudl need to be equpment if you want a to purchase the x-mens blackbird but allow people with fabulous fortunes to have a cell phone and nice car to drive to club and impress their friends.

But I think the original line of what can be purchased and what requires the eqipment feat was lost when they gave up the reins.

It seems like the idea the current powers that be have of Wealth is more as an equivalent of Benefit: Status (I'm rich b**ch). While the actual Stuff of wealth is covered with equipment.

The only real issue I personally have with that is that equipment costs for really basic Items are way over costed (scuba gear, a laptop, a PDA, a desktop, a cellphone, and a flashlight all worth the same amount) But thats an issue with Equipment not wealth specifically.

I'm waiting for someone to answer my question.

If memory serves the equipment catagory for Champions is more like Devices from M&M than equipment but its been awhile and I've lost all my champ books now.

Well I was thinking it seemed kinda limiting without giving any bonus but the trade off of needing selective and being abel to use extra effort I think balances it now that I look at it more closely.

Thematically it makes sense as not being able to attack throught the FF is a clasic comic drawback though most comic FF are more like a create object force dome.