Dr Archeville Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 I've actually not read either of those, so I honestly can't say. But, yeah, if Avenger's being like the Question (will freak out, but won't kill, or even attempt to kill [in most circumstances]), that's fine. It's when you start acting like Rorschach that we have a problem. Link to comment
Avenger Assembled Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Avenger will not actually kill Vulture, at least not on purpose. But he will certainly make it appear that he will. ;) Link to comment
N/A Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I've actually not read either of those... :shock: Doc, there are gaping holes in your classical education. TDKR was no Watchmen, but it came out around the same time and was a similarly seminal work for comics in general. That, and Y1 were the books that gave Miller the clout to become the deranged egomaniac he is today. Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 I know, I know. There be a shameful amount o' things I've not yet read. Link to comment
N/A Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Mind Reading check vs Vulture: 29. Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 He's an open book. For now. Link to comment
Razorback Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 A little FYI: I'll be MIA after about 3pm PST today until Monday. Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Is Scarab just reading surface thoughts, or going for the full mind probe? Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 And yes, the Succubus was summoned in much the same was as Angelique from Hellraiser IV: Bloodlines. Link to comment
N/A Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 And yes, the Succubus was summoned in much the same was as Angelique from Hellraiser IV: Bloodlines. I stopped watching those movies after the third one (the last one before they went straight-to-video). Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 28, 2009 Author Share Posted March 28, 2009 I like the 4th one, but the rest are pretty bad. Though the eighth one, Hellworld, had a pretty decent twist on it (aided by Lance Henriksen's presence). Link to comment
N/A Posted March 28, 2009 Share Posted March 28, 2009 I like the 4th one, but the rest are pretty bad. Though the eighth one, Hellworld, had a pretty decent twist on it (aided by Lance Henriksen's presence). Correction - I am actually familiar with that one. And one person's "decent twist" is another person's Wall Banger. Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Actively torturing someone = not actually crossing the line? Link to comment
N/A Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Actively torturing someone = not actually crossing the line? Making the kid think Avenger's about to break something, so he'll get scared and start cooperating, is far more ethical than Avenger actually breaking something. That, and the fear of physical pain has been long proven to be a far more efficient and reliable interrogation method than actually inflicting the pain itself. But it's mostly an ethics issue. Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 But it's mostly an ethics issue. Yes. Yes, it is. Which is the reason I spoke out. As I said in the Ref thread, it's not that they're harming/implying they'll do far worse harm to the bad guy in order to scare him (into answering questions? scaring him straight?) that's an issue. Those actions, in and of themselves, aren't so bad as to warrant questioning. And, yes, Scarab telling Avenger to not really seriously injure him is also a good thing. Those things are at the level of what most incarnations of Wolverine or the Bat-Family would routinely do. Three things, IMO, do take them out of "mostly acceptable naughtiness" and into "whoah, wait a sec" territory: 1) Scarab has Mind Reading, and is already probing the guy's mind, so there's no need to lean on him for answers/explanations. 2) Avenger's "someone in a vaguely superior position of authority is telling me it's okay to do this, so I'm doing it" mental note, which does not speak well of any ethical or moral center he may hold. 3) Scarab has implicitly threatened to kill him, indicated that his life is worth no more to them than the life of the shopkeeper he was harassing. Yes, I know the character doesn't really mean it, but it is the image she's projecting, and if word gets out that this is how Scarab does things, more than a few people are going to be questioning her ethics and morals, even if she never does actually cross that line. Heroes will be watching her for if/when she does, and Villains will soon learn her death-threats are idle bravado. Link to comment
Avenger Assembled Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 As someone actively getting up to these Iron Age-y shenanigans, I feel I ought to at least speak up on my own end of things. Three things, IMO, do take them out of "mostly acceptable naughtiness" and into "whoah, wait a sec" territory: 1) Scarab has Mind Reading, and is already probing the guy's mind, so there's no need to lean on him for answers/explanations. This fact is not necessarily obvious to the rest of us, with little experience in telepathy. In Avenger's case, his assumption is that a little extra physical persuasion goes a long way. 2) Avenger's "someone in a vaguely superior position of authority is telling me it's okay to do this, so I'm doing it" mental note, which does not speak well of any ethical or moral center he may hold. Jack is not actually as hard as he pretends to be, smacking a kid around makes him feel kind of bad. (Note that he had no moral qualms at all about feeding from him.) I had assumed that a character who was pretending to be a tough, scary bad guy would actually feel bad about some of the things he did. Heros feeling bad about what they do in the field is pretty Bronze Age. 3) Scarab has implicitly threatened to kill him, indicated that his life is worth no more to them than the life of the shopkeeper he was harassing. Yes, I know the character doesn't really mean it, but it is the image she's projecting, and if word gets out that this is how Scarab does things, more than a few people are going to be questioning her ethics and morals, even if she never does actually cross that line. Heroes will be watching her for if/when she does, and Villains will soon learn her death-threats are idle bravado. I dunno, Gotham's thugs (with a few exceptions) are pretty scared of Batman. I do agree that this was a bit surprising, though, if only from my end of things. Part of the reason Jack is getting a little creeped out by Elena is that, as Avenger, he deliberately pushes his own moral limits, acting like a creepy, dangerous sociopath to scare people and to keep them from getting too close to him personally. So having people agree so wholeheartedly with his methods is...unsettling. Avenger shouldn't be the kind of guy who thinks about joining the Freedom League; the Freedom League should be the sort of people who seek him out to have a Chat about his Methods. Which would be a good story, by the way. I'll tell you guys what, I'll try and bring it around on my post, all right? Link to comment
N/A Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I dispute your implication that The Scarab's telepathy makes the intimidation attempts superfluous. At the point in time we're discussing, The Scarab is still Exhausted from her last attempt to read Vulture's mind. It took her four tries to break through his mental defenses. His will proved strong enough (and my dice luck poor enough) that she honestly wasn't sure 1) if she could read his mind again at all, and 2) if she could, how long she could maintain the probe once he gets his Lasting saves to give her the boot. If she has to push herself at all, she's falling Unconscious again. And she has no Hero Points left. She's at the limits of her endurance. Having Avenger scare the piss out of him is her way of keeping all the bases covered - to ensure that they get as much information out of him as possible, and that the information they get is accurate, even if her powers fail her. The reputation issue occurred to me. And honestly, I don't see it becoming an issue in this situation. Vulture isn't exactly what one would call a reliable source, or a sympathetic one. And if all she's doing is threatening, if she doesn't actually cripple or kill anyone, I don't see how villains claiming that she threatened to do so would have much of an effect on anyone. Talk is cheap. But yes, like Batman before her, eventually, villains may learn that she's bluffing and that there are lines she won't cross. That's a concern all superheroes who aren't Heroic Sociopaths face. I don't see how it's unique to her (or Avenger). Believe it or not, I gave this all a lot of thought before I posted any of it. I wasn't just indulging some kind of sadistic power fantasy. Link to comment
N/A Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 AA, I have a request: Could you please edit your last IC post to not include the part about it being a Frank Miller punch, or about the kid needing a dentist afterward? Part of the reason I was leaning so heavily on psychological interrogation was to steer us away from engaging in any more physical violence than we already had. I understand what you're trying to do here, and I'm cool with it, but I think the parts I highlighted undermine your intended purpose. A simple knock-out blow is sufficient, I think, without permanently maiming or scarring him. Link to comment
Avenger Assembled Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 OK, Jack's Will save is back in action, so that last thought shouldn't be apparent to Scarab. And no worries on the moral implications thing; Scarab, Avenger, and Slamdance are just getting to know each other here. There's no reason why they wouldn't run into the occasional ethical conflict. And I will indeed adjust the post a bit, though you have to admit the conflict of doing more damage in your effort to do less damage is a bit amusing. :D Link to comment
Razorback Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Wow, missed the whole philosophy thread while I was gone. Link to comment
N/A Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Wow, missed the hole philosophy thread while I was gone. You can still weigh in. Link to comment
Razorback Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I have no problem with this style of gaming. Avenger is, actually, more in line with the type of character I would play normally. Slamdance is a bit of a take for me... the young, naive character who doesn't see things as morally ambiguous but is still sorting out the black and white in all the gray. Playing someone who doesn't get a lot of that is, for me with this character, is playing someone that try's to be the boyscout and has trouble with the ends justifying the means. Link to comment
Avenger Assembled Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Man, here I show you my beautiful face and no one's got anything to say afterwards. Let us have some IC posts round 'here! I am enjoying the incipient moral debate we've got going, it makes a lot of sense given that this is the first time the characters have started working together. Why is Avenger so defensive about not being a monster, anyway? :D Link to comment
Dr Archeville Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 If Vulture weren't unconscious, he would in fact say that you're a very pretty man. Link to comment
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